Sprawl #3 176 x 246 mm, 48 pages Sprawl is a new Nottingham-based indie mag dedicated to DIY subcultures, music and art. Available both online and in print, and taking inspiration from the scrappy punk fanzines of the late 70s and early 80s, inside you’ll primarily find conversations with scenesters old and new. After hours photographer Mischa Haller sets the tone of this third issue, which features a shot from his recently published photobook ‘Not Going Home’—an ode to 90s club culture—on the cover. Inside, he reflects on his early career, the evolution of the dance floor following seismic shocks such as the collapse of communism and 9/11, as well as what remains once the lights go up. Also featured: Sonic Youth guitarist and vocalist Lee Ranaldo, English rock band Ulrika Spacek, graphic artists Steph Dutton and Imarni Boyer-Nugent, Canadian collective Crack Cloud, and more. Words: MagCulture
In the early 80s, lower Manhattan wasn't just a backdrop; it was a collision point. Musicians, filmmakers, painters and composers moved through the same rooms, with figures like Jim Jarmusch and Basquiat crossing paths with bands like DNA and the Contortions. Looking back, does No Wave feel historically significant to you, or did it simply feel like the most honest way to make work at the time?
Lee: Looking back, it feels incredibly significant. At the time, it just felt like normal life in New York. Everybody was moving here at that point. It was a kind of flashpoint, but New York has always been a place that attracts all kinds of creative people.
I have to say, one of the big differences was that most people were coming out of university, and they weren't just high-school garage musicians like a lot of the players in the 60s were. Everybody had been trained in one form of the arts or another. People came here to be painters, to make films, to do theatre, or to do all kinds of other things. And everyone, having grown up on rock and roll, just gravitated towards playing music.
It was an exciting time to start playing music. So you had all these people, whether they could play or couldn't play, forming bands and performing. You didn't really have to know how to play in order to play. That was the way it was.
You had people like Jim, who were dying to make films, or people like Robert Longo or Richard Prince, who wanted shows in galleries. All of those things were really hard to do. I came from art school, and Thurston briefly studied at a kind of literary school at university before he dropped out. Arto Lindsay and Glenn Branca came as theatre performers, you know-things like that.
So everybody ended up in the clubs because it was an easy place to meet each other. Everybody started doing bands because it was easier to get a gig than it was to get a gallery show or raise money for a film or something like that. And then you had not only the New Wave bands, which were immediately starting to break through I saw a lot of those people in their earliest incarnations, like Talking Heads or the Ramones or Patti or whatever, Television, the Voidoids but also DNA and the Contortions and all these No Wave bands that were really doing radical stuff. They were the ones who maybe really didn't know how to play, but were still picking up instruments and playing, because that was kind of the root thing of rock and roll.
You don't really know how to do more than a couple of chords; you just make a racket and scream over it, and you've got a band and a song. All those people realised they could do that. It was a time when all these notions of appropriation, deconstruction and minimalism were in the air anyway, so people decided to do that in music.
There's a tradition of musicians coming out of art school, from the Beatles and the Who to whoever. It's where a lot of the best musicians came from, because they were thinking about music as an art form. They weren't learning at conservatoires, learning how to play all their scales and all that stuff like a proper musician. They were thinking about the music they grew up on, which was kind of radical and revolutionary and exciting, and something anyone could do, really.
You had all these people forming bands and, as soon as some of them got their opportunities to make a film or show in a gallery, they started leaping off and leaving the music behind. Some did, some didn't. Jim still does the music for some of his films, Longo still plays in bands, you know. People still keep a hand in, but at that time everybody was meeting in the clubs and playing together. It was just a super-exciting time.
In Conversation
It was a time when all these notions of appropriation, deconstruction and minimalism were in the air, so people decided to do that in music.
Before Sonic Youth fully developed its own language, you were playing in Glenn Branca's electric guitar orchestra. Those works felt less like songs than immersive structures built from overtones, mass and sheer volume. What did inhabiting that scale of sound teach you about the physical dimensions of music, and did it permanently recalibrate your sense of what a guitar could be?
Lee: Oh, I suppose it did, in a sense. What Glenn was doing, and what Rhys Chatham was doing, and some others, was really kind of revolutionary. They were using the instruments of rock and roll, but wanting to make something more symphonic or orchestral with them, and Glenn was really the most radical. His music translates when you listen to it on record, but when you were actually standing in front of it and being confronted by it, it was like a force. You'd never heard anything like it before.
It was super-incredible, shortly after moving to New York, to fall in with him and start playing with him. I'd seen him perform a couple of times, and the same with Rhys, and they were doing something nobody else was even trying to do, let alone doing well. They were taking elements from the minimalist composers who were around then - Terry Riley, Steve Reich, Philip Glass, La Monte Young and all that stuff but they were also taking, say, the last three chords of a Who song or something like that. They were combining all of that with electric guitars and doing this really radical stuff, so it was super-impressive to hear what he was doing.
Even as radical as any of it was as radical as Teenage Jesus, or DNA, or the Contortions, or Glenn, or Rhys everybody in New York was trying to do something out of the ordinary. It meant that, even though the things being done there were pretty radical and weird and wild, if you lived there it just kind of felt like the norm. Nobody was really trying to play regular old-fashioned rock songs. I mean, there were people doing it, and they were sort of throwbacks in a sense, but most of the people we hung out with were working in one kind of radical form or another. So it just felt normal. Every band you saw was doing some weirdo thing that nobody had ever heard before.
Although someone like Glenn was such a forceful personality that he really did stand out. Or Lydia. And David Byrne, for that matter. But everybody was doing strange stuff like that, so you felt part of a community. It felt normal.
When Sonic Youth first started playing outside New York, that's when we began to realise how weird what we were doing actually was. In New York it was just like, 'OK, everybody's doing something weird', so it felt normal. But as soon as we started going to Europe or travelling around the US, you noticed people's reactions were like, 'What the fuck is going on?' And that made us see it in a different way.